Using Abia and Lagos states as reference points, why do you think the fates of deputy governors are usually tied to the whims of governors?
Why is it usually difficult to find a situation where the governors and their deputies have a smooth relationship devoid of eye-service?
It all depends on the governor. You see, a lot of the governors, I am sorry to say so, have a complex because, sometimes, the deputies are even more qualified, even educationally, in every way, better than the governors, but for political reasons, the governor is picked and therefore that governor usually finds himself suffering from some sort of complex. That is why the relationship, very often, is not smooth.
But don’t you think there is a way out of this?
Well, I think the way out of this, actually, is for the Constitution to spell out the roles of the deputy governor. Once the Constitution does this, I think there will be less conflict. Because the governor is the one who decides what portfolio the deputy has, whereas if there were a specific role for the deputy, then I think the governors would be less apprehensive.
In your own case, didn’t you foresee it happening?
Well, in a way, I did, because, you know, Bola Tinubu and I were in the Senate and one could study his character from there. So, I was not really particularly interested in becoming his deputy, but the elders of the party prevailed upon me, that I should take the post.
Since you knew that, why then did you not back out?
Well, the problem was, you know, we were in NADECO (National Democratic Coalition) together and in NADECO, contrary to what everybody was thinking, that it was Tinubu that was financing us, he was not financing us because he didn’t have any money when he became governor. He only had people who backed him to become governor. Well, most of us had spent all our money in the struggle and, therefore, didn’t have money to fight for elections. And therefore, it was those who had the wherewithal that were selected.
You were a founding member of the Alliance for Democracy (AD). Why did you have to leave the party for the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP)?
I wasn’t the only one who left AD for the PDP.
Yes, I know. So many other people left, but in your own case, why?
Well, in my own case, why was, like the others too did, Tinubu had taken over the party from those of us who formed the party.
But, like you said, he didn’t own the party, so why would you just leave because of him?
No, he did not own the party. He was not even in the country when AD was formed. He was still in exile.
So, suddenly, just because of him you left?
No, not because of him! When the party which you formed no longer belongs to you, then you have to find your way elsewhere.
So, for Lagos politics now, what are we looking at, with you?
I am still very active in Lagos politics. I am still very active in the PDP. I don’t see myself contesting for any elective position right now, because electioneering has become too monetized and expensive. You need a lot of money to even contest for councillorship, and certainly, I don’t have that kind of money?
How come, didn’t you make money as a deputy governor?
I didn’t go into politics to make money. I went there for service and I don’t know how one makes money when one is in office, unless one is ready to be corrupt, because you have your salaries and that is the only thing you get.
How about award of contracts to yourself?
You cannot participate in the contracts because you are the one presiding over the contracts, unless you are ready to take kickbacks, which is corruption.
You mean you didn’t at all get involved in the award of contracts or collection of kickbacks?
Well, even the commissioners, I don’t think they were involved in the awarding of contracts. I think all the contracts were handled by Tinubu himself. When I was in office, I don’t think any commissioner could award any contract for more than N50,000 (fifty thousand naira).
Since, like you said, electioneering has been monetized, how then does a credible candidate without the wherewithal for elections emerge?
They can’t, unless the electorate changes its attitude, because it’s really up to the electorate to realize that when they are making demands from politicians and aspirants, they are sealing up their own fate because, once somebody has paid you to get your vote, he doesn’t expect you to come to him to ask for anything.
Many are of the opinion that the Lagos PDP, presently, is too factionalised. Do you see them overcoming this problem and seeing themselves through 2015?
The Lagos PDP is no longer factionalised. We have all mended our fences and we are all working together.
From a personal assessment, how sincere do you think this administration has been in the implementation of the 35 per cent affirmative plan policy?
I think President Goodluck Jonathan has tried, but I don’t think we have achieved the 35 per cent in this administration. I think Olusegun Obasanjo’s administration was better because there were more women in the cabinet, in prominent positions, parastatals and in fact, everywhere.
The Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) chairman, Attahiru Jega, was in Lagos recently and stated that the INEC can independently and successfully conduct a free and fair election in and of its own, without any form of military interference. But from what we have observed from recent elections, it is like the electioneering process is somehow being presently militarized. How do you reconcile his statement with that?
I don’t know whether there were military intervention, but I know some military men were brought in to supplement the role of the police in other to maintain law and order. Speaking from what I saw on the television, I didn’t see military men near the polling booth or interfering with the peoples in any way. I think their presence was only to make sure that law and order was kept.
According to Northern elders, President Goodluck Jonathan’s inability to bring back the Chibok girls disqualio you personally think he stands qualified to contest, since the girls are still missing?
I don’t see what the Chibok girls had to do with Jonathan running again if he so wishes. Certainly, I think the issue of the Chibok girls should not be politicized at all. It is a tragic incident and unfortunate. It is not an easy thing to go and rescue 200 girls. When they tried it in Sokoto State where some expatriates were kidnapped, two of those expatriates they were trying to rescue got killed. Now, you are talking about 200 girls. You have to be very careful in any rescue attempt so that those girls don’t get killed. You don’t just rush in with blazing guns and think you can get them out. You might find out that the vast majority of them might get killed by your own soldiers, who are shooting to get them out or by the very Boko Haram who go around slitting peoples’ throats. So, it’s a very delicate situation which we must leave with the security forces to plan how they can do it.
If you say it has got nothing to do with Jonathan’s re-election as a chief security officer, what then do you consider the responsibilities and duties of a chief security officer?
The chief security officer’s job is to make sure that the security officers under him come up with a good plan to ensure, not only the security of the girls, but their rescue as well. And if I were to be a chief security officer, and I am not sure of any of the plans they bring forward, I will not want to risk the lives of those girls because those girls are other peoples’ children and I have children of my own. So, one has to be very careful. You take the incidence of the al-Qaeda, it took a lot of planning and time before Barak Obama was able to get Osama bin Laden. The former President, George Bush, could not do it, but eventually Obama did. The security officers have to be sure of what they are doing before they can carry out a rescue.
In your opinion, why did you think the Northern leaders rejected the draft constitution of the confab?
From what I could see from the confab, the Northern leaders do not want any change in Nigeria. They are quite happy that things should continue as they are. And, of course, the rest of the country wants some change which is where the crux of the problem is. When you have a Constitution that requires about a hundred amendments from some of the decisions that were taken at the confab, then is it not better to write a new constitution? What was put forward was the 1999 Constitution, plus the changes in that constitution, so that we would have a document to present to the president. So there was nothing in that constitution that we had not taken a decision on. The Northern elders, or whatever you call them, do not see anything wrong with Nigeria. All they see wrong with Nigeria is that Jonathan should vacate the presidency in 2015. But Jonathan is not the cause of our problem. We have many problems which were caused, not by Jonathan himself, but by people who were there before Jonathan and I think we have done our best at the confab to solve these problems or at least to attempt to solve them.
With the happenings around, people have indicated that some of the legislators have their own vested interests as well. If that is the case, do you think the report of the confab should be subjected to the legislators for appraisal and ratification?
They do not only have vested interests, they are also not really, truly, representatives of Nigerians, because of the way the constituencies have been delineated. And, therefore, most of us at the confab believed that the whole decision of the confab should be put to the Nigerian people to decide what they want. Let them decide between the new constitution, with the changes, and the old constitution.
How do you think the average Nigerian can have access to the contents of the report of the confab for them to decide on what they want?
Well, how do Nigerians decide anything? The thing is to put it out, spell it out, translate it to the various languages; publish it in the newspapers, announce it on the radios, televise it, have vans going around, holding sessions in the villages and everywhere, explaining to people the differences. And then, after that had been done, you can let them decide on what they want.
How about the issue of zoning, do you still believe in it?
For now, personally, I don’t subscribe to zoning because it breeds mediocrity, because you don’t always get the best if you zone. But in our present situation in Nigeria and to keep Nigeria as one country, I think we have no other alternative than to go for zoning so that every part of the country will feel they have a stake in the governance of this country.
Back to 2015, do you see politics of godfatherism and imposition still playing itself out?
Of course, it will in 2015 because people still see politics not as service but as an investment. You invested in somebody and put him in a position so that he can bring you returns. And until we cure that out of our political life, I don’t think we can stop godfatherism and have the sort of good government that we require.
So what, in your own view, is the way out of this?
Well, it is up to us to decide. Do we want good government or continue the way we are. People talk about stomach politics and all the rest of them. But you have to realize that when you are taking something from somebody, it is only for now. We have to learn to look into the future. Unfortunately, we have not learnt to look to the future yet. We are only looking at our immediate need and this is what is causing our problem.
You once granted an interview to a national daily, stating that the Lagos State government is still owing you and they followed up immediately, emphasising that they weren’t owing you a dime. Haven’t you resolved your differences?
No, we have not resolved all the issues yet. In fact, yesterday (Sunday, August 17) somebody phoned me from the office of the Head of Service (HoS) regarding the issue and I told them to speak to my lawyer. I don’t think anybody will be phoning me if all issues have been resolved.
Is it that you, personally, do not want it resolved?
I or they do not want to resolve it? I want the issue resolved and I have been on it since I left office. That is since 2002.
But don’t you think the call you got was for a peaceful reconciliation?
I have obviously never said I don’t want to resolve it amicably.
Should Tinubu stretch forth an olive branch to you now, wouldn’t you accept it?
Are we fighting? I am not aware that I am fighting Tinubu. Maybe he is fighting me. And I am not aware that I have ever fought Tinubu. What I have done is stick to my principles and refuse to do some of the things which he wanted me to do which I felt was wrong and unprincipled.
